Curse

LightningHell · Jan 30, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?

Mediocre and sinking.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?

I don't know. In my opinion, no it isn't a good thing, but yes it is. No meaning it...well...becomes less challenging for more advanced players, but yes meaning it's easier for new players to get in.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?

Simple. You don't have to pay to play.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?

I don't know...average?

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?

It's a question of if I would remedy the problem or not.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?

Professions? Yes. Skills? I wouldn't know.

Are new professions too easy to play?

In my opinion? Yes. From both chapters, with the exception of Assassin.

Dione Davore · Jan 30, 2007, 10:38 AM // 10:38

The average level of most GW players is so bad that people prefer Hero's over people cause the hero's perform better than the average player.
Adding hero's made this a solo-game instead of playing together. It just isn't like Prophecies anymore. I think thats a pity.

sixdartbart · Jan 30, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Great post Tiyuri;
I think your original post pretty much sums up the state of PvP [at least GvGs,I never had any interest in any of the other areas]

I can only speak for myself but you have summed up why I stopped GvGing,The only other real drawback I see is the lack of incentive to play anymore and spend the time to be good. With the advent of the farmable GvG title I noticed the "gimmick" builds being so heavily used that it drew alot of new players in and with using only the FOTM huge pressure/fast win title farming builds, most of them never learned field tactics or bothered to try and make builds that don't show up on google.

I consider myself a very good player and spent my time GvGing with highly skilled and intelligent players of which maybe 15% of them still GvG.

I really have no idea how any of the new directions the game has gone can be turned around but between google builds and the lack of interest newer players show in learning anything beyond what they see as the easiest way to win I believe the over all skill level is on a sharp decline.

Xeeron · Jan 30, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?

In PvE: Higher than at the start and still rising. The number of total PvE noobs has decreased plenty. I hardly remember the last W/mo HB spammer.

In low end PvP: Lots higher that at the start. Even some rank 3000 guilds run half decent builds now, when they used to use their PvE minion masters.

In high end PvP: Below Prophecies/Factions levels and stagnating. It is telling that almost none of the current FotM builds originated in high end GvG.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
In the short term good. In the long term, losing the very top of the skill pyramid can be devastating.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Old noobs got experience, old pro's got bored after 2 years of the same game.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Below top 10%, above the rest.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
Stop introducing new professions.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
The game can deal with tons more, but build builders can not. All current FotM depends on (ab)using single strong skills instead of creating interaction between different skills.

Are new professions too easy to play?
No. If anything, they are too hard: Witness how everyone is reducing them to single skill builds instead of creating innovative skill chains/interactions.

- Xeeron

trialist · Jan 30, 2007, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
Somewhere between average to low.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
For a free to play game? Depends on how dedicated you are to the game. If you are a hard core player, it's obviously bad for you, if you are a casual player, go join in the carebear hug.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Number of factors actually. First there is the exodus of experienced players. I've been playing since the WPE and i can honestly say i've seen entire friendlists worth of decent to highly skilled players simply disappear never to log on again.

Then there is the Guild Wars sales model being based largely on new blood and expansion chapters. This means any new blood has a steep learning path before him if he really wants to be a versatile player able to play many builds stretching across chapters. Unfortunately a lot of new bloods find that too much of a hassle and just settle on whatever builds they are comfortable with or simply wiki a cookie cutter build to save himself some brain cells. Being stuck playing only a few builds or cookie cutters, skill levels naturally decline.

Which leads to the other factor, the freedom of information (some may argue misinformation) available. Having lots of public information available through the wiki or public forums is good but unfortunately a lot of new bloods do not use this info to better themselves by expanding their skillbase and builds, choosing instead to go right to the cookie cutters and "effective" builds. The problem with this approach is that many do not see why that build is "effective", because they skipped the whole process of discovery involved. Playing a half-assed experimental build and tweaking it till it becomes "effective", you learn a lot of quirks involved with the build/skills and its strengths and weaknesses, not to mention its variances possible. By grabbing it right off the net, you have an "effective" build missing the skill and tactics needed to really play it and play it well.

Lastly, as a few have mentioned already, its a free game. Really, unless you are one of the top guilds or planning to be a top guild with a chance at playing in tournaments and winning prizes, there is really no reason to beat yourself up over this game and try to be better at it (its free, duh). You essentially play to have fun and once that fun is gone so too is whatever little dedication already ties you to this game.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Sunken to average and sinking still, due to real life and a steadily decreasing interest.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
Don't really think it is possible. To do so you will need to motivate the players to improve themselves, which is kinda like trying to make an idiot not be an idiot. You can dangle carrots and spoonfeed information to the players, but unless they want to learn and have the motivation to learn, it's an exercise in futility.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
Depends. If Otyugh's Cry ever became a PVP necessity on every player's skillbar, maybe. (i.e. There are as many useless skills as there are useful ones.)

Are new professions too easy to play?
Yes, if you want to talk about cookie cutter builds, no, if you want to try a non cookie cutter build.

Deleet · Jan 30, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?

Low - Medium.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
Good, it helps keeping the flood of new players coming and keeping the avarage low so the new players can more easily see their progress.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?

The f2p argument, as mentioned above. I think it's valid.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Above average/high

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
In my opinion there is no problem about the low skill level - Or at least when they fix the daily tournament function, higher level guilds will more likely match up against other high ranked guilds, same goes for HA.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
No, the skills is not the problem, someone mentioned that they keep the game fresh and I think i can agree on that. I think the problem lies with the new players having to buy all pervious campaigns to play serious PvP. That is my major concern about the future of Guild Wars PvP.

Are new professions too easy to play?
While at first, it seems easy to play a paragon as a support character, even helping on the spikes is easy. But then you realize that the profession is capable of a lot functions. Due to their naturally high armor, they are excellent body blockers for both flag runners and for helping your monks kite from enemy melee attackers.

Dervishes, on the other hard, lack mobillity compared to warriors. Even though they are easy to spike with without the same risk as a warrior, they are also more predictable. Smart players will use that to their advantage, removing them from the overpowered list to good.

Long story short, Nightfall introduced easier ways for bad or medium players to beat other bad or medium players.

Corinthian · Jan 30, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
- Lower than AI.
Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
- Good, I own more.
Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
- They are dumb and young kids who can't pay for WoW.
How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
- I'm godlike.
Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
- That was reached ages ago.
Are new professions too easy to play?
- Nah, they're just fun.

And what's wrong with replacing Ether Renewal, Blinding Flash and Enervating Charge with one elite skill? It brings 2 new skills into builds to play with. More variety. Nobody wants to bring 5 spells just to rip some enchants off. They can now bring a scythe attack and Grenth's Avatar. And 6 others. More variety!!!

Jecht Scye · Jan 30, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
Low to Below Average

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
Actually, I think this is normal overall. Whether it's good or bad is questionable.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Think of people, most people in general are complete idiots. It should be no different in an online game. It's just one of those unfortunate facts of life. My guess is the current system placates that fact and tries to dumb it down for our average 13 year old players to our 35 year old players that still act like they're 13.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Above Average, but below Hardcore HA/GvGer. I know what most skills do, but I'm not able to come up with a successful build on the spot. It takes time for me. Not sure if others can just sniff out a successful build by reading descriptions or not.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
Unfortunately I have no idea. This problem isn't even close to as easy as many ANet complainers may think it is. Much of this is due to speculation as well. To me, Searing flames is overpowered. Also in terms of PvP I think necros need a huge overhaul, but that's just me. It's easy to speculate such things but we have no idea what the consequence of nerfing or buffing will do until it's implemented. That's probably why ANet did this test weekend, to see what works and what doesn't. It's much easier to have thousands of people test/submit bugs than it is to have a mere office room full of people do it. Not to mention that many of them are too busy working on future releases of Guild Wars in order to keep their profits rolling in to PvP. It's the only way they can continue to keep the servers online so it's a necessary evil to deal with on the player side of things.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
I don't believe so. You'll probably see the same number of skills released upon the arrival of Chapter 4, and heres the reason: People get bored of using the same old skills. They want to try new things and will complain if they're not able to upon the release of a new expansion.

Are new professions too easy to play?
Absolutely. I believe they are the answer to all of the complaints they were getting about "noob assassins" in Factions. The thing about Assassins is: They can be devastating(and usually are nowadays) if used correctly. However for the first few months of Factions, and this is even somewhat prevalent now of new Assassin users, they are completely terrible at playing them. For those of us there during the first few months of Factions, all we saw were Assassins thinking they were tanks, and getting crushed attempting to do so. My fiancee, the best monk i've ever had the pleasure to play with, at times refused join groups with Assassins or heal many assassins because they were completely oblivious to the fact that they were as fragile as Necromancers with Tormentor's Armor. Anyways, this is my explanation for why they decided to "dumb down" the new professions.

moriz · Jan 30, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

in some positions however, the average player skill has gone up.

take monk for example. in the old days, a monk can go in with oldschool OoB, holy veil, and sig of devo, and still complain about energy issues. nowadays, monks go Mo/A/E/whatever and still have plenty of energy to go around.

also, gone were the days where a monk can heal 100+ hp every time they twitch. monk builds nowadays are slower, and heal for less; yet they are still as effective as ever while being played. the only logical assumption to this is that the average skill level of monk players has gone up.

XvArchonvX · Jan 30, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Some questions to consider:

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?

PvE wise, I think it's actually a bit higher than it used to be.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?

I personally think that the skill level of other players has made much of an impact to the state of the game, at least in relative reflection of the other factors (such as the game itself).

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?

Getting runs is almost non-existant in any campaign other than Prophecies. Also, I think there has been more challenge integrated into PvE in general. If nothing else, there are a lot more skills and professions to be taken into consideration when considering how to prepare and build for battle.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?

I've been playing for over 19 months and while I've never been a really PvP intensive person, I'd like to think that my overall experience in addition to what I have learned from others on these forums puts me a good bit ahead of average players.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?

There will always be either complete idiots or people who simply dont invest enough time into the game to be able to be incredibly adept at the game. Making the game too hard will cause many of the casual players to quit and making it too easy will make the hardcore players move on. Failing to meet the balance will cost A-net money and therefore come at the expense of those who still play the game in terms of quality of experience (because after all, a online game isn't much fun if no one is online).

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?

I certainly think that many people out there have, but I don't think the general mass ever will by virtue of their casual nature.

Are new professions too easy to play?

Personally, I think the new professions are harder to play than many of the core professions. Assasin's are a good example of this. Such is why it became common to see one die in nothing flat in PvE. Skill combos and increasingly conditional skills have required more thought to be put into builds. I believe this largely comes from the fact that A-net has had to become more diverse and creative in their creation of skills to allow them to be different from other professions, but still fit and be balanced.

Tiyuri · Jan 30, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Thanks for the responses all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

in some positions however, the average player skill has gone up.

take monk for example. in the old days, a monk can go in with oldschool OoB, holy veil, and sig of devo, and still complain about energy issues. nowadays, monks go Mo/A/E/whatever and still have plenty of energy to go around.

Ah but right now we're at a stage where monk elites are practically managing energy for you. Zealous benediction is on almost every monks bar, it's a huge heal and it's an elite that lets pretty much anyone energy juggle.

Have monks become more skilled? Or have monk bars got easier to play? To be efficient with the old boon prot you had to prot AND heal using divine boon, the prot aspect was actually important. With new monk bars the prot and the healing is pretty separate, I'd suggest this is far easier to play than the old boon prot bars.

Do you think perhaps new skills are becoming obsolete due to the way new elites in each chapter are replacing skill combinations?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jecht Scye

To me, Searing flames is overpowered.

This is an interesting point. What makes a skill overpowered? Is it simply the POTENTIAL for the skill to be effective? Does the ease of use come into it at all?

Searing flames is a skill that can be played to high effect with very very very low skill input required. Does that in itself make it overpowered? I'd suggest it doesn't, however it DOES lead to a stale metagame where mid level players are only playing the skills that require nothing of them but still get results.

What do you think?

Brother Andicus · Jan 30, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
Average level is fairly good. Observer mode did a lot for the knowledge of low-end players.
However, there were certain members of several of last seasons top 20 guilds that couldnt even kite properly. The skill level of the top 100 is sitting somewhere below average and falling.

In summary, there are less useless players, but also less highly skilled players.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
Bad, without a doubt. A game can survive as many bad players as you can throw at it whilever there are awesome players around to show what can be achieved and move the game forward.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Poor skill balancing both in terms of quality and quantity.
GW had a great balance and a thriving competetive community before factions was released. Now it has no balance and good players are leaving on a dayly basis.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Top 10% of the PvP community but falling due to irregular play and lacking motivation.
In the whole of GW, no idea, but I'd suggest that the skill level of the PvP community is above that of the average PvE player.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
3 Things.

First - Either hire a new balance/PvP dev team or remove the red tape that stops them doing their job. Quite simply put, if my performance at work was like theirs recently i'd be job hunting.

Second - Stop adding new professions.

Finally - Fix VoD. Having the best build to nuke npcs come VoD isn't conducive to high player skill.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
No, I believe with regular balancing the game can handle many more skills. It is however getting beyond the limits for skill types. We need to see some counters to forms, weapon skills and shouts/chants before adding any other new concepts.

Are new professions too easy to play?
Assassin - No. A couple of NF skills makes it too easy, but those are skills rather than a problem with the profession.

Ritualist - Yes and No. Spirit spamming is too powerful for its difficulty level. There is potential however for builds that do require more skill.

Paragon - Yes. Leadership needs a heavy nerf. I'm not against party wide buffs, but they should be used at appropriate times rather then spammed.

Dervish - Unknown. The balance of dervish is too screwed up to comment on how easy/or not they are to play. Theoretically the answer is no, but as it stands there just too many overpowered things.

Stemnin · Jan 30, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

I tried doing a mission with a pug the other day, Pogahn Passage, tried once saturday afternoon, group failed miserably, sunday afternoon, totally different group, totally bad builds (im not even sure if the other monk had a full skill bar, spammed guardian, RoF and aegis only).

After not playing a month, I was hoping it (pugs) would improve, I can easily do the mission with heroes and henchies, that's what I did the first days of NF, but I want to play with PEOPLE, not henchies or heroes anymore at all.

Brother Andicus · Jan 30, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

This is an interesting point. What makes a skill overpowered? Is it simply the POTENTIAL for the skill to be effective? Does the ease of use come into it at all?

Searing flames is a skill that can be played to high effect with very very very low skill input required. Does that in itself make it overpowered? I'd suggest it doesn't, however it DOES lead to a stale metagame where mid level players are only playing the skills that require nothing of them but still get results.

What do you think?

I think there are 2 effects involved here.

First, Searing Flames is only a little overpowered.
In combination with Glowing Gaze it is VERY overpowered.

What makes a skill overpowered or not is the effect it has balanced against your opponents ability to counter it.
In the case of Searing Flames alone, the 1s cast time makes it a little too good. A 2s cast would allow easier interrupts and give monks an easier time protting. But used alone, it isn't really that good as a pressure tool, it eats too much energy.
BUT, Glowing Gaze was obviously designed to work with SF, and the combination of the two turns SF from a mediocre pressure skill to a very good one.

The other effect is a gradual dumbing down effect you referred to in your first post. SF, Grenth, SP, Paragons etc.
This effect cant be described as overpowered. The effect they have is to provide a smaller advantage to good players and a MUCH bigger one to bad players. This is a VERY undesirable effect, but I dont believe it is overpowered.

What GW needs is more skills like Blackout/Gale/Blinding Flash, which used by a highly skilled player can have a devastating effect, but used by poor ones do very little.
Skills like Grenth are more dangerous in the hands of a good player, but nothing like the gap with the skills I mentioned above.

Lykan · Jan 30, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

My answers concern PvP
Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
Below that of this time last year

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
Definitly bad

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Too many new professions and not enough skill balance.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Slightly above average

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
Remove paragon and dervish from the game.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
Im certain the developers ran out of ideas for skills at the end of factions, most nightfall stuff is either overpowered junk.

Are new professions too easy to play?
Certainly, anyone can effectively play a dervish or paragon just by spamming any non consecutive sequence of skills, especially paragon, it requires no skill at all to play.

I also agree that all the other professions have been dumbed down with the new skills, it saddens me that mesmers are only used to spam SP over and over. What happened to the true masters of shutdown?

Grolubao · Jan 30, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

I must say the average lvl of skill in GW is mediocre. After seeing echoing mending, wammos with mending and healing hands, warriors with life transfer, monks tanking with daggers skills, this is the conclusion I take from this.

lightblade · Jan 30, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15

To me, a good player...

doesn't rage quit during a game. You do that after the game.

Tiyuri · Jan 30, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

To me, a good player...

doesn't rage quit during a game. You do that after the game.

So I could be a good player whilst AFK?

Grolubao · Jan 30, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

I only go to RA if I'm in the need of a good laugh or simply to get a glad point. If I see the team hasn't got any future, I play the first game and after it I quit yes.
The last one I saw was a P/E with searing flames, liquid flame lol

wolfy3455 · Jan 30, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?

The average overall, I would say is higher than it used to be. It's really only at the top that the dramatic decrease is there.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?

I really don't know. Skill levels are relative, but at the moment (especially with the current ladder system) the difference between the older generation of players compared to the newer high level is problematic. Right now the odds of facing a comparable guild is so low that guilds get inflated ranks. The ELO system is meant to get you to 50/50 once you've achieved your appropriate level, but as it is theres very few guilds that are at the highest level so most top teams have amazing records because theres no competition for them.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?

Like other posters, I think its the dumbed down skills. Most average players will never play with the truly elite to discover how they play, communicate, or think about while playing (I'm not advocating anything against so called "rank elitism", as those top players want to play with *gasp* people as good as them). So, without instruction, its a trial and error - though admittedly one aided by information and discussion off high-end forums - up to the top. In prophesies, the teams realized what was wrong, and adjusted to it accordingly and kept up the process. Now, teams can win with an easy to run build and stop putting effort into improving themselves or even realizing that they need to improve.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?

I would say above average, I observe way above average (the times I can get on aren't when guildies/friends can, so I spend way too much time on observer), gvg whenever I can, read everything from top guild posters across guru/tgh/iq/qq, practice every class in RA, and try to implement things from observer/forums/my own experience into my preferred classes in GvG.

The problem is that players like myself have no benchmark. When you get to a point, there isn't a bright flashing neon sign that says "You're good now!". All we have is our egos and the relative pile of shit around us. I was playing with a friend of mine in HA the other day, he was on meds after surgery so he suggested we play zergway. He said something along the lines of "its the only build I can get fame with while i'm on my meds", which I think really explains the problem (I'm not saying the problem is zergway, its the idea, not the build itself). People can be successful without talent, or in the case of my friend, complete awareness, so they aren't motivated to improve, which leaves other players with bad benchmarks.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?

The only way to fix the problem is to enact measures that make the top players want to stay in the game. Right now the only measure of how bad things are comes from facing those teams.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?

I think so. The real problem lies with introducing new mechanics, but the effect of that filters into skills. A hex will always be a hex and always be removed by hex removing skills. Likewise with all (removable) existing mechanics. When you add new mechanics, new counters are needed and eventually its going to be impossible to counter them all. The new mechanics also need to be attractive enough to replace the old ones that fit into their roles. Shadow steps, earshot range shouts, weapon spells, and single party spirits have all (well, not really weapon spells, so far) caused issues when introduced because they make a rps situation.

But without new mechanics, people will run out of ideas and start improving upon older balanced skills. You end up with bsurge and lod. The bsurges make things less fun because it was a strong shutdown skill, that took player skill to use correctly. LoD is a version of a skill that really didn't take much skill to play, but were essential to have in a team and had to be placed on chars designed for using it. IMO, taking restrictions off of shutdown skills is a bad plan. but taking restrictions off of pure easy-to-use utility helps the game diversify, because you free up character slots.

Basically, if something is restrictive because it takes skill to play, don't dumb it down. If something is restrictive because it takes a specific setup to play, feel free to remove restrictions (if its not hurting balance that is).

Are new professions too easy to play?

Maybe, right now theres too many imbalances to know how they'll perform once they're evened out. Historically though, early rits were the most boring class to play. Early paragons took a close second. Sins took skill to play well (not counting soh/dp/fn), but thats mostly because they've been confined (until recently with guilds like eF and oink using multiple flagstand sins successfully) to ganking rolls. Dervs have yet to take on a skill position, though they might once they aren't 100 damage crit machines with cripple on hits and 3+ cheap mellee shatters with under ten second recharges.